Specialized Planets

Merlex
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Specialized Planets

Postby Merlex » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:31 pm

In Galactic Civilizations 2, they had an interesting concept. They used capital types. You could have a manufacturing capital, an economic, political, or research capitals. It was nice to have specialized planets. You could have planets for building your fleets, and those that could support your empire. The downside was to be truly efficient, you had to completely specialize these planets. And you only got one of each type, unless you captured more from other empires. What about a different approach, that uses mutually exclusive buildings instead? Each planet can only have one of these buildings.

1. Capital Shipyard: gives a boost to ship production. Every planet can have a spaceport, to build small warships, freighters, constructors, and transports. But you can only build large ships, Battleships and up, on planets with a capital shipyard.

2. Planetary Central Bank: gives a boost to stock markets, trade goods produced, and trade ships sent to other empires from these planets.

3. Food Distribution Center: allows you to ship excess food from these planets, to planets in your empire that need it. May also be able to sell food to other races, assuming that race can eat the same items. Or to ship humanitarian aid for a political boost.

4. Diplomatic Outpost: can give a boost to treaty negotiations with nearby races. Perfect for small border planets.

5. Think Tank (needs a better name): gives a boost to planetary research.

6. Military Stronghold: gives a boost to planetary defenses, maybe to marines trained on these planets. Can serve as a choke point, or staging area, or supply lines. In Deep Space Nine, the Federation had an attack to break Dominion supply lines, at a planet that was loaded with automated orbital defenses.
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Re: Specialized Planets

Postby Teleros » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:01 am

Merlex wrote:In Galactic Civilizations 2, they had an interesting concept. They used capital types. You could have a manufacturing capital, an economic, political, or research capitals. It was nice to have specialized planets. You could have planets for building your fleets, and those that could support your empire. The downside was to be truly efficient, you had to completely specialize these planets. And you only got one of each type, unless you captured more from other empires.

It works better in GalCiv2 I think because even the biggest GC2 map is going to be much smaller in scape & scope than a MORE game. In the mean time, we've got pops we can shuffle around to do this very thing (plus maybe spam orbital shipyards for shipbuilding).

"I want a tech world" = stack researchers, etc.

Also, I think these things tend to develop naturally. In a small game, you may well focus research on one or two worlds, but in a large game I think it natural that you have several key worlds doing the same thing (esp. shipbuilding and/or industry). Of course Bennett is a heavy-industry / shipyard world - I would know after all, being the one running things there :) !

Merlex wrote:1. Capital Shipyard: gives a boost to ship production. Every planet can have a spaceport, to build small warships, freighters, constructors, and transports. But you can only build large ships, Battleships and up, on planets with a capital shipyard.

I think this mechanic will be covered with shipyards / starbases, just like MoO2 did it.

Merlex wrote:2. Planetary Central Bank: gives a boost to stock markets, trade goods produced, and trade ships sent to other empires from these planets.

Just fold this into a bonus from your Capital building IMHO. Most nations tend to stick their national banks just down the road from their governments after all. Don't forget, trade should be happening anyway, probably via an abstracted "X credits / turn" system based on each nation's economy if MoO2 is anything to go by.

Merlex wrote:3. Food Distribution Center: allows you to ship excess food from these planets, to planets in your empire that need it. May also be able to sell food to other races, assuming that race can eat the same items. Or to ship humanitarian aid for a political boost.

Meh. As per elsewhere, I'm in favour of more-or-less doing away with most food management in MORE.

Merlex wrote:4. Diplomatic Outpost: can give a boost to treaty negotiations with nearby races. Perfect for small border planets.

Dunno, how would this work exactly? I mean, whatever FTL comms are used in MORE, MoO2 etc seem to be pretty much instantaneous. Also, how much do people actually listen to diplomats vs merchants, soldiers and so on?

Merlex wrote:5. Think Tank (needs a better name): gives a boost to planetary research.

Meh. There may well already be MoO2-style Ancient Artefacts in the game - perhaps you could ship them to other colonies to move the benefit though?

Merlex wrote:6. Military Stronghold: gives a boost to planetary defenses, maybe to marines trained on these planets. Can serve as a choke point, or staging area, or supply lines.

I could see something like this if we had say 4 pop types (farmer / commercial, worker, scientist, military): stack lots of mil-pops to get oodles of extra marines, planetary defence bonuses etc.

Merlex wrote:In Deep Space Nine, the Federation had an attack to break Dominion supply lines, at a planet that was loaded with automated orbital defenses.

TBH this should happen naturally. "I'm planning to invade the Gnolams. Therefore I must hit this system as it has several big shipyards etc"...
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Re: Specialized Planets

Postby Merlex » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:34 pm

Teleros wrote:
Merlex wrote:In Galactic Civilizations 2, they had an interesting concept. They used capital types. You could have a manufacturing capital, an economic, political, or research capitals. It was nice to have specialized planets. You could have planets for building your fleets, and those that could support your empire. The downside was to be truly efficient, you had to completely specialize these planets. And you only got one of each type, unless you captured more from other empires.

It works better in GalCiv2 I think because even the biggest GC2 map is going to be much smaller in scape & scope than a MORE game.


I look forward to M.O.R.E.'s immense size. But to be fair to GC2, i play on maps of 270 by 270 parsecs, with up to 800 planets. Those with both expansions, can have maps of 360 by 360.

Teleros wrote: In the mean time, we've got pops we can shuffle around to do this very thing (plus maybe spam orbital shipyards for shipbuilding).

"I want a tech world" = stack researchers, etc.

Also, I think these things tend to develop naturally. In a small game, you may well focus research on one or two worlds, but in a large game I think it natural that you have several key worlds doing the same thing (esp. shipbuilding and/or industry). Of course Bennett is a heavy-industry / shipyard world - I would know after all, being the one running things there :) !


I think you are misunderstanding me. I didn't mean capitals like GC2, but something on a larger scale. Most if not all of your planets can have, one of these specialty buildings. Though practicality may limit it to larger planets. Think of the MORE's equal to ancient artifacts, they give a bonuses to your scientist pops. Buildings like research labs and universities, give bonuses to them as well. That's all i'm talking about here.

Merlex wrote:1. Capital Shipyard: gives a boost to ship production. Every planet can have a spaceport, to build small warships, freighters, constructors, and transports. But you can only build large ships, Battleships and up, on planets with a capital shipyard.


Teleros wrote: I think this mechanic will be covered with shipyards / starbases, just like MoO2 did it.


I doubt that we would have all of our planets pumping out Battleships and Dreadnaughts. I'd imagine only a fraction of our planets would be capable of producing large scale ships. Your class 30 ultra-rich planets for example, will be your major shipyards. I'm suggesting giving those planets a boost. Most 4x games i've played, only your heavy industry planets/ cities produce the really big units. But all planets should be capable of producing the smaller ships, which is where spaceports come in. For example the Philadelphia Shipyard is not capable of building or working on Super Carriers. But when i was a teen, i could look across the river, and see the Saratoga in dry dock there. There had been plenty of Destroyers and Frigates there as well.

Merlex wrote:2. Planetary Central Bank: gives a boost to stock markets, trade goods produced, and trade ships sent to other empires from these planets.


Teleros wrote: Just fold this into a bonus from your Capital building IMHO. Most nations tend to stick their national banks just down the road from their governments after all. Don't forget, trade should be happening anyway, probably via an abstracted "X credits / turn" system based on each nation's economy if MoO2 is anything to go by.


Well New York and Washington, aren't exactly next door. I'm not suggesting that all planets shouldn't do trade. You should still have your stock markets and banks, freighters shipping between your own planets. But you may have planets with gold or gem deposits. Or planets capable of producing more trade goods. Those planets, you may want to establish trade routes with planets in other empires. With the large amount of quality goods, you can produce on those planets, you stand to make more profit. Los Angeles, is a major trading hub for the United States, for example.

Merlex wrote:3. Food Distribution Center: allows you to ship excess food from these planets, to planets in your empire that need it. May also be able to sell food to other races, assuming that race can eat the same items. Or to ship humanitarian aid for a political boost.


Teleros wrote: Meh. As per elsewhere, I'm in favour of more-or-less doing away with most food management in MORE.


I'm not sure i follow you. Do away with food management in what way? Do you mean no farmers or farms? In MOO2, you would have Terran or Gaia planets that were mineral poor, i would those as farming planets. With my freighters i would supply my mineral rich, agriculturally poor planets. Think of the farming belt in the US. It supplies not only a lot of food for the US, but for the world. Of course once you terraform, it less useful. But i felt terraforming was way too easy in MOO2. It should be closer to the endgame. And don't get me started on food replicators.

Merlex wrote:4. Diplomatic Outpost: can give a boost to treaty negotiations with nearby races. Perfect for small border planets.


Teleros wrote: Dunno, how would this work exactly? I mean, whatever FTL comms are used in MORE, MoO2 etc seem to be pretty much instantaneous. Also, how much do people actually listen to diplomats vs merchants, soldiers and so on?


Think of them as cultural planets, maybe resorts. People visit cities in other countries all the time, it influences how they see those countries.

Merlex wrote:5. Think Tank (needs a better name): gives a boost to planetary research.


Teleros wrote: Meh. There may well already be MoO2-style Ancient Artefacts in the game - perhaps you could ship them to other colonies to move the benefit though?


That's an interesting idea.

Merlex wrote:6. Military Stronghold: gives a boost to planetary defenses, maybe to marines trained on these planets. Can serve as a choke point, or staging area, or supply lines.


Teleros wrote: I could see something like this if we had say 4 pop types (farmer / commercial, worker, scientist, military): stack lots of mil-pops to get oodles of extra marines, planetary defence bonuses etc.


Now i really like that idea. ;)

Merlex wrote:In Deep Space Nine, the Federation had an attack to break Dominion supply lines, at a planet that was loaded with automated orbital defenses.


Teleros wrote: TBH this should happen naturally. "I'm planning to invade the Gnolams. Therefore I must hit this system as it has several big shipyards etc"...


I don't think the Dominion system in DS9 had any shipyards. But that it was located in a strategic location. It was hardened with a lot of orbital weapons platforms, but the Dominion didn't get them all on line in time. But they still took a large toll on the Federation and Klingon fleets. By capturing the system, the alliance created a choke point, forcing Dominion forces to take a much longer route.
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Re: Specialized Planets

Postby Teleros » Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:43 pm

Merlex wrote:I doubt that we would have all of our planets pumping out Battleships and Dreadnaughts. I'd imagine only a fraction of our planets would be capable of producing large scale ships. Your class 30 ultra-rich planets for example, will be your major shipyards. I'm suggesting giving those planets a boost.

Why give them a boost though? They surely have enough of an advantage with their innate 30-pop-ultra-rich-ness.

Merlex wrote:Well New York and Washington, aren't exactly next door.

Compared to Sol & Alpha Centauri they are :P . ~4hrs from the Federal Reserve in NY to Capitol Hill is peanuts by comparison.

Merlex wrote:But you may have planets with gold or gem deposits. Or planets capable of producing more trade goods. Those planets, you may want to establish trade routes with planets in other empires. With the large amount of quality goods, you can produce on those planets, you stand to make more profit. Los Angeles, is a major trading hub for the United States, for example.

Surely that just happens automatically anyway?

Merlex wrote:'m not sure i follow you. Do away with food management in what way? Do you mean no farmers or farms?

I'd do away with farmer pops; farming would be a worker pop job instead. Farming in the US may use a lot of land, but it uses sod all people compared to the overall population. There's another thread where I go into this in more detail though.

Merlex wrote:Think of them as cultural planets, maybe resorts. People visit cities in other countries all the time, it influences how they see those countries.

Yeah, but how does that work WRT actual diplomacy?

Merlex wrote:I don't think the Dominion system in DS9 had any shipyards. But that it was located in a strategic location. It was hardened with a lot of orbital weapons platforms, but the Dominion didn't get them all on line in time. But they still took a large toll on the Federation and Klingon fleets. By capturing the system, the alliance created a choke point, forcing Dominion forces to take a much longer route.

The shipyards thing was only an analogy in MoO2 terms. As for choke points, urgh. They're really hard to do when you have "go anywhere" FTL (remember the opening scene of Star Wars RotS? Exactly).
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Re: Specialized Planets

Postby Merlex » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:41 pm

Merlex wrote:I doubt that we would have all of our planets pumping out Battleships and Dreadnaughts. I'd imagine only a fraction of our planets would be capable of producing large scale ships. Your class 30 ultra-rich planets for example, will be your major shipyards. I'm suggesting giving those planets a boost.

Teleros wrote: Why give them a boost though? They surely have enough of an advantage with their innate 30-pop-ultra-rich-ness.


Sure, but then you could make the same argument about Automated Factories and Deep Core Mining. Actually i got the idea for a major shipyard from you.:

Teleros wrote:However, what if you instead had something like this:

L1 Shipyard: builds up to 2 at a time, at a rate of X. Cannot build ships larger than cruisers.
L2 Shipyard: builds up to 4 at a time, at a rate of 2X. Cannot build ships larger than battleships.
L3 Shipyard: builds up to 6 at a time, at a rate of 3X. Cannot build ships larger than dreadnoughts.
...
Etc

For example, let's say X = 200, your doom star costs 20,000. Well, at your L10 Shipyard (10X production), it will be built in 10 turns (20,000 / 10X = 20,000 / 2,000 = 10). Of course, you could in fact build 20 at a time in a L10 Shipyard, but at 0.5X production each, it'll take 200 turns (!) to build them all...



But instead of ten different sizes, i made it a little more simply, with less micro-managing.

Spaceport/ Shipyard: can build heavy/ battle cruiser size warships and smaller. Can build all non-warships ie: colony ships, transports, freighters, constructors, and explorers.
Capital Shipyard: can build any warship. Can build all non-warships. Gains a 10% bonus to ship production.

You gave a production bonus to your shipyards, which is why i gave one here.


Merlex wrote:Well New York and Washington, aren't exactly next door.

Compared to Sol & Alpha Centauri they are :P . ~4hrs from the Federal Reserve in NY to Capitol Hill is peanuts by comparison.


Apples and oranges, i was comparing nations. Scaling the conversation to real world examples. The United States is a large nation, that doesn't have it's political and financial capitals in the same city. A space empire shouldn't have to either. Travel in the 25th century would be a lot faster than your example as well. If you scale up the nation, you have to scale up the travel as well. I'd imagine most most transactions would be electronic, or the 25th century equivalent. As you pointed out, with FTL communications...

Merlex wrote:But you may have planets with gold or gem deposits. Or planets capable of producing more trade goods. Those planets, you may want to establish trade routes with planets in other empires. With the large amount of quality goods, you can produce on those planets, you stand to make more profit. Los Angeles, is a major trading hub for the United States, for example.

Teleros wrote: Surely that just happens automatically anyway?


Correct as far as economic production is concerned. By my main focus on this building, is about enhancing the value of interstellar trade routes coming from these planets. Having a planet or planets, that are more focused on trade than research or building warships. That's not to say, they can't have scientists or build warships. These planets having a larger selection of higher quality goods, should make more credits than goods coming from smaller poorer planets. Think of the East India Trading Company, they were very good at turning a profit.

Merlex wrote:'m not sure i follow you. Do away with food management in what way? Do you mean no farmers or farms?

Teleros wrote: I'd do away with farmer pops; farming would be a worker pop job instead. Farming in the US may use a lot of land, but it uses sod all people compared to the overall population. There's another thread where I go into this in more detail though.


I get where your coming from, but i have to disagree. Feeding your empire is major part of most 4x games i've played. I'm all for making games less micro-managed, but i enjoy having to balance my empire, making sure all of my planets' needs are met. Using Earth as an example again, there are places that have populations, that the land can not support. Or that can make one type of food, but not the balance needed for a healthy life. Which why there so much food import/ export in the world. Same with multiple planets, some will be Terran= mineral poor, and some will be Barren- mineral rich. I believe that MOO2 had it right. You build freighters, assign x number to food transport, and the game does that in the background.

Merlex wrote:Think of them as cultural planets, maybe resorts. People visit cities in other countries all the time, it influences how they see those countries.

Teleros wrote: Yeah, but how does that work WRT actual diplomacy?


Public opinion influences political policies. Not all the time mind you, but it does have an effect.

Merlex wrote:I don't think the Dominion system in DS9 had any shipyards. But that it was located in a strategic location. It was hardened with a lot of orbital weapons platforms, but the Dominion didn't get them all on line in time. But they still took a large toll on the Federation and Klingon fleets. By capturing the system, the alliance created a choke point, forcing Dominion forces to take a much longer route.

Teleros wrote: The shipyards thing was only an analogy in MoO2 terms. As for choke points, urgh. They're really hard to do when you have "go anywhere" FTL (remember the opening scene of Star Wars RotS? Exactly).


Good point. But that would depend on several factors. How far would the solar system's military influence extend? How much longer would it take to go around the system, to get to your targets? Does the system have exploitable military resourses, like fuel, or metals for repairs? Is the system a major staging area for the enemy, to attack your systems. I've also read some discussions here about starbases with warp disruptors, making a kind of protective wall, to protect some of your systems. But personally, i really like your suggestion of a fourth population, a military population. That's a great idea!
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Re: Specialized Planets

Postby Teleros » Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:26 am

Merlex wrote:Spaceport/ Shipyard: can build heavy/ battle cruiser size warships and smaller. Can build all non-warships ie: colony ships, transports, freighters, constructors, and explorers.
Capital Shipyard: can build any warship. Can build all non-warships. Gains a 10% bonus to ship production.

You gave a production bonus to your shipyards, which is why i gave one here.

Something like that I suppose could work, hmm. As I've said elsewhere, what I really want to see in MORE is the ability to have basically "shipyard worlds" where I can (in return for a substantial investment in the buildings required) pump out lots of ships - either one at a time but very quickly, or multiple ships at once (yay for realism). Maybe if players could opt to build multiple shipyards of each time at a colony, that might be fun :) .

Also, just had an idea: regular shipyards give a financial boost or w/e when not used by your military, on the basis that it includes private shipyards or government shipyards hired by private groups. Full-scale military shipyards are another matter though, so whilst they build warships faster, they don't contribute anything when not in use, and in fact cost maintenance.

Merlex wrote:Apples and oranges, i was comparing nations. Scaling the conversation to real world examples. The United States is a large nation, that doesn't have it's political and financial capitals in the same city. A space empire shouldn't have to either. Travel in the 25th century would be a lot faster than your example as well. If you scale up the nation, you have to scale up the travel as well. I'd imagine most most transactions would be electronic, or the 25th century equivalent. As you pointed out, with FTL communications...

You need fast travel as well as comms though. The Galactic Empire could plausibly site its central bank off Coruscant because travel might be just minutes or hours (like DC - NY). The Federation can't do that nearly as much because Trek warp speeds are so much slower.

Merlex wrote:Having a planet or planets, that are more focused on trade than research or building warships. That's not to say, they can't have scientists or build warships. These planets having a larger selection of higher quality goods, should make more credits than goods coming from smaller poorer planets. Think of the East India Trading Company, they were very good at turning a profit.

I suppose that's kind of what I'm getting at with my commercial pop idea (instead of farmer pops). Bung everyone into that & you'll rake in oodles of money - having a trade benefit from that would make sense too - nice realistic synergy there. Would be a case of pop management rather than buildings, but essentially they're both a form of colony management.

Merlex wrote:I get where your coming from, but i have to disagree. Feeding your empire is major part of most 4x games i've played.

Depends. I can see farming being key in a Civ game because, you know, it's mostly ancient history when farming tech sucked.

Using Earth as an example again, there are places that have populations, that the land can not support. Or that can make one type of food, but not the balance needed for a healthy life. Which why there so much food import/ export in the world.[/quote]
A lot of that is just internal trade for the sake of money though. In terms of actually feeding people, that requires sod-all in the way of employees if you use modern methods. Extrapolating into the future just a little bit, wait until you have fully-automated vats for meat and hydroponic farms for vegetables & fruits: at that point you can pretty much write off farming as a profession & replace it with "hydroponic tech" or w/e :P .

Well, all right, I'm sure there'll still be fads for organic farming or w/e. But as far as feeding your people goes, expect sub-1% of the population to do it easily. Given that situation, I don't see why farming rates its own pop type in a sci-fi game.

Merlex wrote:Public opinion influences political policies. Not all the time mind you, but it does have an effect.

No I mean, how will it affect diplomacy in the game itself?

Merlex wrote:How far would the solar system's military influence extend?

I figure on having a bubble around a star system as sensor reach or something, rather than "owning" vast tracts of interstellar space. Anything entering that bubble gets spotted & its course plotted for you in detail, whilst things outside that bubble perhaps only show up as a fleet icon or w/e.

Merlex wrote:How much longer would it take to go around the system, to get to your targets? Does the system have exploitable military resourses, like fuel, or metals for repairs? Is the system a major staging area for the enemy, to attack your systems.

Too many variables IMHO. A lot of that'll come down to in-game stuff like the tech level of your FTL drive or w/e.

Merlex wrote:But personally, i really like your suggestion of a fourth population, a military population. That's a great idea!

I can see it having perhaps three main uses IMHO: boosting defences against invasion, providing an experience bonus to your ships, and maybe encouraging rebellions if someone takes over the planet. Possibly a 4th use in keeping the population happy ("this is my boomstick. That is your Molotov cocktail. Sure you wanna riot :twisted: ?").
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Re: Specialized Planets

Postby Merlex » Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:29 pm

Teleros wrote: ...As I've said elsewhere, what I really want to see in MORE is the ability to have basically "shipyard worlds" where I can (in return for a substantial investment in the buildings required) pump out lots of ships - either one at a time but very quickly, or multiple ships at once (yay for realism). Maybe if players could opt to build multiple shipyards of each time at a colony, that might be fun :) .


I like the idea, though we have to be careful. We don't want the game to become as overly complex and tedious as MOO3. I'd have to see how it plays.

Teleros wrote: Also, just had an idea: regular shipyards give a financial boost or w/e when not used by your military, on the basis that it includes private shipyards or government shipyards hired by private groups. Full-scale military shipyards are another matter though, so whilst they build warships faster, they don't contribute anything when not in use, and in fact cost maintenance.


Makes sense, the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard built, and repaired civilian ships when not busy with the military.

Merlex wrote:Apples and oranges, i was comparing nations. Scaling the conversation to real world examples. The United States is a large nation, that doesn't have it's political and financial capitals in the same city. A space empire shouldn't have to either. Travel in the 25th century would be a lot faster than your example as well. If you scale up the nation, you have to scale up the travel as well. I'd imagine most most transactions would be electronic, or the 25th century equivalent. As you pointed out, with FTL communications...

Teleros wrote: You need fast travel as well as comms though. The Galactic Empire could plausibly site its central bank off Coruscant because travel might be just minutes or hours (like DC - NY). The Federation can't do that nearly as much because Trek warp speeds are so much slower.


We are getting too hung up on the building name "Planetary Central Bank". As i said below, the idea was about an economic building to coordinate and boost economic revenue, specifically trade revenue. Could be another name, with another inference. How about "Trade Coordination Center", or "Revenue Agency"?

Merlex wrote:Having a planet or planets, that are more focused on trade than research or building warships. That's not to say, they can't have scientists or build warships. These planets having a larger selection of higher quality goods, should make more credits than goods coming from smaller poorer planets. Think of the East India Trading Company, they were very good at turning a profit.

Teleros wrote: I suppose that's kind of what I'm getting at with my commercial pop idea (instead of farmer pops). Bung everyone into that & you'll rake in oodles of money - having a trade benefit from that would make sense too - nice realistic synergy there. Would be a case of pop management rather than buildings, but essentially they're both a form of colony management.


I'm not opposed to a Commercial Population Unit, but i'm still a little iffy on doing away with Farm Population Units.

Merlex wrote:I get where your coming from, but i have to disagree. Feeding your empire is major part of most 4x games i've played.

Teleros wrote: Depends. I can see farming being key in a Civ game because, you know, it's mostly ancient history when farming tech sucked.


Merlex wrote: Using Earth as an example again, there are places that have populations, that the land can not support. Or that can make one type of food, but not the balance needed for a healthy life. Which why there so much food import/ export in the world.


Teleros wrote: A lot of that is just internal trade for the sake of money though. In terms of actually feeding people, that requires sod-all in the way of employees if you use modern methods. Extrapolating into the future just a little bit, wait until you have fully-automated vats for meat and hydroponic farms for vegetables & fruits: at that point you can pretty much write off farming as a profession & replace it with "hydroponic tech" or w/e :P . Well, all right, I'm sure there'll still be fads for organic farming or w/e. But as far as feeding your people goes, expect sub-1% of the population to do it easily. Given that situation, I don't see why farming rates its own pop type in a sci-fi game.


You make some good points. In the Firefly universe, they still did large amounts of farming and ranching. Not as much on the central planets as the outer planets though. But planets would still need to import food, do to the poor quality of some planets. Even with hydroponics and automation, the expense may not be worth it compared to shipping. Of course that doesn't address Farm Population Units, and actually supports the idea of Commercial Population Units.

Merlex wrote:Public opinion influences political policies. Not all the time mind you, but it does have an effect.

Teleros wrote: No I mean, how will it affect diplomacy in the game itself?


Oh :D . Well, it could affect it in a number of ways. Here is just a few examples.:

1. Public opinion in empire B, has turned against the war with empire A. Empire B has to sue for peace, to calm it's citizens.
2. Empire A's Diplomatic/ Cultural outposts on the border with empire B, has influenced empire B's view of empire A. The citizens feel connected to empire A, resulting in friendlier relations.
3. Empire B is sympathetic to empire A's plight, having been attacked by empire C. Empire B provides intelligence and military support( ships, tech, ect.) to empire A, even though there is no alliance.
4. Provides empire A with a bonus to spies, trying to cause unrest in empire B's border planets.

Merlex wrote:How far would the solar system's military influence extend?

Teleros wrote: I figure on having a bubble around a star system as sensor reach or something, rather than "owning" vast tracts of interstellar space. Anything entering that bubble gets spotted & its course plotted for you in detail, whilst things outside that bubble perhaps only show up as a fleet icon or w/e.


No i wasn't suggesting owning vast tracts of interstellar space. But if Earth has a large military base in the Vega System, their enemies may want to plot a different route. Being a military planet, it may have better sensors, and most certainly several ships to attack fleets near the system. I do like the idea though of starbases being able to be anywhere. These can serve as trading hubs, military staging areas, research facilities researching anomalies, or control major intersections like wormholes.

Merlex wrote:But personally, i really like your suggestion of a fourth population, a military population. That's a great idea!

Teleros wrote: I can see it having perhaps three main uses IMHO: boosting defences against invasion, providing an experience bonus to your ships, and maybe encouraging rebellions if someone takes over the planet. Possibly a 4th use in keeping the population happy ("this is my boomstick. That is your Molotov cocktail. Sure you wanna riot :twisted: ?").


It would have to have a percentage limit though. Or players could abuse it by drafting everyone right before an invasion, then sending them back to there old jobs after the fight. It takes training to be an effective warrior. You would rarely capture populations for slaves, or indoctrination due to them all being dead. Say maybe a max of half the population can be military.

I wonder if it's too late for the devs to consider adding in a Military Population Unit? If so, maybe we could try and get it added to the Advanced Ground Combat DLC.
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Re: Specialized Planets

Postby Teleros » Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:13 pm

Merlex wrote:I like the idea, though we have to be careful. We don't want the game to become as overly complex and tedious as MOO3. I'd have to see how it plays.

Gods no, that would be horrible :shock: . No, I'm thinking more along the lines of "I choose to build additional shipyards in system X" or "I choose to build additional orbital defences in system Y". Assuming the player has the brains to remember where they were spamming shipyards, it shouldn't be too complex :D .

Merlex wrote:We are getting too hung up on the building name "Planetary Central Bank". As i said below, the idea was about an economic building to coordinate and boost economic revenue, specifically trade revenue. Could be another name, with another inference. How about "Trade Coordination Center", or "Revenue Agency"?

I dunno, I just don't like this idea of specialising planets that way. I mean, I can understand specialising a world by building multiples of the same thing (be they factories, shipyards or farms), or by shuffling pops around. Don't get me wrong I can understand how it may be beneficial from a gameplay perspective, it just doesn't gel for me I guess.

Merlex wrote:You make some good points. In the Firefly universe, they still did large amounts of farming and ranching. Not as much on the central planets as the outer planets though. But planets would still need to import food, do to the poor quality of some planets.

The way I imagine it, you have buildings that buff the food produced by worker pops. So a new colony world (ie Firefly outer planet) lacks those buildings, so worker pops are actually required to do stuff like produce food. Once you get that first hydroponics farm up & running though, food production rapidly ceases to be a worry.

Merlex wrote:Even with hydroponics and automation, the expense may not be worth it compared to shipping.

In reality, I think interstellar freighters are more likely to carry luxuries and people than anything else. You'd have to have some pretty odd economics to make it cheaper to import basic foodstuffs or raw materials between entire solar systems in large quantity.

Merlex wrote:Oh :D . Well, it could affect it in a number of ways.
<Snip>

Yeah possibly. I just feel that positive relations should turn on more than just a handful of worlds in each nation.

What if instead of making "culture worlds" or w/e, you had a culture policy option? It would function in a similar manner I suppose, but be nationwide rather than based on key planets. Ie you can make a decision to encourage good relations between the Gnolam people & your people. It gives a very slight initial boost to diplomacy, but is really a long-term means of securing alliances (or indeed hostilities).

Merlex wrote:No i wasn't suggesting owning vast tracts of interstellar space. But if Earth has a large military base in the Vega System, their enemies may want to plot a different route

Ah I see :) .

Merlex wrote:I do like the idea though of starbases being able to be anywhere. These can serve as trading hubs, military staging areas, research facilities researching anomalies, or control major intersections like wormholes.

I do too, my concern is really a gameplay one WRT placing them properly.

Merlex wrote:It would have to have a percentage limit though. Or players could abuse it by drafting everyone right before an invasion, then sending them back to there old jobs after the fight. It takes training to be an effective warrior. You would rarely capture populations for slaves, or indoctrination due to them all being dead. Say maybe a max of half the population can be military.

Yes, although I'd set the % limit through social policies or something. If you're a naturally warlike race, you can have more people as military pops than a naturally peaceful race. Well, I say "naturally" but I suppose this could be determined by a combination of passive bonuses to race point picks & actual in-game actions:

-Dictatorship governments may give a warlike bonus vs democratic governments.
-Ground/space attack/defence bonuses give a similar bonus.
-Winning individual battles would not have an effect on military pop limits.
-The more often you come out ahead after a war, or the more often the threat of your armed forces makes the other side back down, the more of a bonus you get.

The last one I think is the key thing though. Military success breeds a more pro-military outlook at home, resulting in more people signing up etc. Of course it ALSO breeds a lot of potential issues abroad ("OMG we gotta ally to stop those all-conquering humans!" etc), but on the domestic front it seems like a fairly nice way of increasing your mil pop cap.

Merlex wrote:I wonder if it's too late for the devs to consider adding in a Military Population Unit? If so, maybe we could try and get it added to the Advanced Ground Combat DLC.

Failing that, I just hope they've been nice and left lots of mod options open to us :) .
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Re: Specialized Planets

Postby Merlex » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:38 am

Teleros wrote: I'm thinking more along the lines of "I choose to build additional shipyards in system X" or "I choose to build additional orbital defences in system Y".


I can see that. Though i'd prefer it to be individual planets instead of systems. At least until i build Dyson Spheres, and they should be late game. I read about this one 4x space game, i forget the game, where shipyards worked system wide. Every planet you colonized in that system, added to the overall production of the system. Meh, too simplistic.

Teleros wrote: I dunno, I just don't like this idea of specialising planets that way. I mean, I can understand specialising a world by building multiples of the same thing (be they factories, shipyards or farms), or by shuffling pops around. Don't get me wrong I can understand how it may be beneficial from a gameplay perspective, it just doesn't gel for me I guess.


I get the impression from the "How many iterations of buildings shall we have?" thread, that the devs are going with the abstract colony design. So there won't be multiple Automated Factories, Robo-Miner Plants, Stock Markets, ect. Which is fine with me, i'm not too crazy about the GC2/ MOO3 style of spamming multiples of Enhanced Factories in sectors. Which is why i proposed an additional build to specialize planets. Though just because a planet has a Trade Coordination Center doesn't mean they can't do research or build ships. It just a boost, for your more trade heavy planets.

I like add, that though i support the MOO2 abstract colony model, i don't think it should apply to military installations. When the Advance Ground Combat DLC, colony building will become much more important.

Merlex wrote:You make some good points. In the Firefly universe, they still did large amounts of farming and ranching. Not as much on the central planets as the outer planets though. But planets would still need to import food, do to the poor quality of some planets.


Teleros wrote: The way I imagine it, you have buildings that buff the food produced by worker pops. So a new colony world (ie Firefly outer planet) lacks those buildings, so worker pops are actually required to do stuff like produce food. Once you get that first hydroponics farm up & running though, food production rapidly ceases to be a worry.


I can see that if the game subtracted from overall production, the amount that went to farming.

Merlex wrote:Even with hydroponics and automation, the expense may not be worth it compared to shipping.


Teleros wrote:In reality, I think interstellar freighters are more likely to carry luxuries and people than anything else.


Sure mostly.

Teleros wrote:You'd have to have some pretty odd economics to make it cheaper to import basic foodstuffs or raw materials between entire solar systems in large quantity.


I don't know about that. In the Star Trek universe they still ship food, even with replicators and slower warp speeds than many other sci-fi universes. Though in Babylon Five, it was very expensive to ship food up to the station. But in Stargate SG1, there was a very advanced civilization, going around turning industrial age planets into farming planets. Of course they did have the stargate to transport the food. But they did use other planets as farms, to feed their more advanced planets.

Merlex wrote:Oh :D . Well, it could affect it in a number of ways.
<Snip>

Teleros wrote: Yeah possibly. I just feel that positive relations should turn on more than just a handful of worlds in each nation.

What if instead of making "culture worlds" or w/e, you had a culture policy option? It would function in a similar manner I suppose, but be nationwide rather than based on key planets. Ie you can make a decision to encourage good relations between the Gnolam people & your people. It gives a very slight initial boost to diplomacy, but is really a long-term means of securing alliances (or indeed hostilities).


You won me over, i agree you idea is better in this instance.

Merlex wrote:I do like the idea though of starbases being able to be anywhere. These can serve as trading hubs, military staging areas, research facilities researching anomalies, or control major intersections like wormholes.

Teleros wrote: I do too, my concern is really a gameplay one WRT placing them properly.


I have the same concerns. As much as i enjoy having starbases in GC2 (i currently have over 200 economic ones), i feel their influence range is much too great. It should be two parsecs at most, not eight.

Merlex wrote:It would have to have a percentage limit though. Or players could abuse it by drafting everyone right before an invasion, then sending them back to there old jobs after the fight. It takes training to be an effective warrior. You would rarely capture populations for slaves, or indoctrination due to them all being dead. Say maybe a max of half the population can be military.

Teleros wrote: Yes, although I'd set the % limit through social policies or something. If you're a naturally warlike race, you can have more people as military pops than a naturally peaceful race.


Your right i forgot to add that in. Of course the Klingons or Brutas would have a higher cap, due to their warlike natures.

Teleros wrote: Well, I say "naturally" but I suppose this could be determined by a combination of passive bonuses to race point picks & actual in-game actions:

-Dictatorship governments may give a warlike bonus vs democratic governments.
-Ground/space attack/defence bonuses give a similar bonus.
-Winning individual battles would not have an effect on military pop limits.
-The more often you come out ahead after a war, or the more often the threat of your armed forces makes the other side back down, the more of a bonus you get.

The last one I think is the key thing though. Military success breeds a more pro-military outlook at home, resulting in more people signing up etc. Of course it ALSO breeds a lot of potential issues abroad ("OMG we gotta ally to stop those all-conquering humans!" etc), but on the domestic front it seems like a fairly nice way of increasing your mil pop cap.


That's an interesting idea.

Merlex wrote:I wonder if it's too late for the devs to consider adding in a Military Population Unit? If so, maybe we could try and get it added to the Advanced Ground Combat DLC.

Teleros wrote: Failing that, I just hope they've been nice and left lots of mod options open to us :) .


Not my area of expertise. I can do some simple editing of game files, with step by step instructions. But modding no. I got a late start on the tech age, and just never caught up. :mrgreen:
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Re: Specialized Planets

Postby Teleros » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:43 am

Merlex wrote:
Teleros wrote: I'm thinking more along the lines of "I choose to build additional shipyards in system X" or "I choose to build additional orbital defences in system Y".


I can see that. Though i'd prefer it to be individual planets instead of systems. At least until i build Dyson Spheres, and they should be late game. I read about this one 4x space game, i forget the game, where shipyards worked system wide. Every planet you colonized in that system, added to the overall production of the system. Meh, too simplistic.

Same, I'm just saying the kind of "complexity" I want WRT buildings etc. Or at least with military buildings :) .

Merlex wrote:I get the impression from the "How many iterations of buildings shall we have?" thread, that the devs are going with the abstract colony design. So there won't be multiple Automated Factories, Robo-Miner Plants, Stock Markets, ect. Which is fine with me, i'm not too crazy about the GC2/ MOO3 style of spamming multiples of Enhanced Factories in sectors. Which is why i proposed an additional build to specialize planets. Though just because a planet has a Trade Coordination Center doesn't mean they can't do research or build ships. It just a boost, for your more trade heavy planets.

I like add, that though i support the MOO2 abstract colony model, i don't think it should apply to military installations. When the Advance Ground Combat DLC, colony building will become much more important.

Same WRT military vs non-military buildings, just saying I think I prefer specialising by building more or moving pops than building specialisation buildings.

Merlex wrote:I can see that if the game subtracted from overall production, the amount that went to farming.

Basically this, yeah.

Merlex wrote:
Teleros wrote:You'd have to have some pretty odd economics to make it cheaper to import basic foodstuffs or raw materials between entire solar systems in large quantity.


I don't know about that. In the Star Trek universe they still ship food, even with replicators and slower warp speeds than many other sci-fi universes. Though in Babylon Five, it was very expensive to ship food up to the station. But in Stargate SG1, there was a very advanced civilization, going around turning industrial age planets into farming planets. Of course they did have the stargate to transport the food. But they did use other planets as farms, to feed their more advanced planets.

Star Trek can at least justify it with colonies in trouble or lacking enough replicators etc. B5 did it more realistically IMHO, and as for the Goa'uld - well they were melodramatic feudal lords, so ostentatious displays of wealth at the expense of practicality (just think of their rank & file soldiers...) is in keeping with their modus operandi IMHO.

Merlex wrote:
Merlex wrote:I do like the idea though of starbases being able to be anywhere. These can serve as trading hubs, military staging areas, research facilities researching anomalies, or control major intersections like wormholes.

Teleros wrote: I do too, my concern is really a gameplay one WRT placing them properly.


I have the same concerns. As much as i enjoy having starbases in GC2 (i currently have over 200 economic ones), i feel their influence range is much too great. It should be two parsecs at most, not eight.

If MORE has starbases in empty space, I'd seriously consider not giving them any influence range at all. Let your systems provide influence range, and either pop starbases in your territory as border guards or way out there as early warning outposts / refuelling stops IMHO. Well, at least for military ones. Civilian ones could be out there because the nebula next door looks pretty for all I know :D .
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