Size of Galaxy & M.O.R.E. Galaxies

ANGLVD3TH
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Re: Size of Galaxy & M.O.R.E. Galaxies

Postby ANGLVD3TH » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:54 am

Teleros wrote:
knightdt wrote:It was hard to reconcile the needs of two regions, let alone two continents, and in the future it will initially be hard to reconcile two planets, let alone two star systems. Obviously technology, communication, policies, etc have a role to play as well - but don't discount size and distance just because there are other factors.

Because of the speed of communication & travel. Compare that to a galaxy like, say, Star Wars, where you can travel from one end to the other in hours sometimes (not to mention having transgalactic real-time conversations).

knightdt wrote:Haven't played GalCiv 2 so I can't speak to that one. And if it is expansion content then you should be able to turn it off anyway.

I don't think it's something that builds up in GC2, haven't played it in ages though.

May Player wrote:other empires will join together to stop you.

Always disliked this in games... I'd rather they joined together against you if they were worried about you. The giant trading nation that CBA with warfare isn't a threat, but Nazis in Spaaaaace! are.

Sorry, just one thing thats a real pet peeve of mine... Ship CAN NOT cross the galaxy in a matter of hours in Star Wars. The visual mediums make liberal use of time skips through hyperspace. The fastest generally available hyperdrive can cross the galaxy in a few days. Real time comm, however, is indeed possible.

EDIT And in fact, this can be misleading. This assumes a Class 1 hyperdrive flying straight-line non-stop. "Even with a well traveled hyperspace route the fastest ships, such as the Millennium Falcon, would take several months to traverse the whole diameter of the galaxy." the MF is twice as fast as a class 1 hyperdrive, which are generally only found on military ships.
Hyperdrive classifications go in reverse order and by magnitude, With .5 being twice the speed of 1, 1 twices the speed of 2, etc. 0.0 would theoretically be infinitely fast.

Teleros
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Re: Size of Galaxy & M.O.R.E. Galaxies

Postby Teleros » Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:03 pm

No, it's quite possible. A lot depends on location etc, as this old chart from "Behind The Magic" shows:

Image

Plenty of other evidence too. Two examples off-hand:

-Rebel staging post to DS2 was a few hours tops in RotJ, else the fighters wouldn't have flown in separate to their motherships. DVT is a problem for space pilots too y'know :P .
-Darth Maul from Coruscant to Tatooine in TPM.

Basically, FTL speeds range from ~1million lights to up to ~50 million (Tatooine to Alderaan in 7hrs, based on the BTM galactic map). Not that they need hyperdrive though - else how did the Falcon get from Hoth (or wherever it was after it attached to that ISD) to Bespin in under thousands of years :D *?

* "Author's intent" is cheating. You have to suspend your disbelief if you're doing a proper tech analysis else it's too subjective.
Clear ether!

ANGLVD3TH
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Re: Size of Galaxy & M.O.R.E. Galaxies

Postby ANGLVD3TH » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:02 am

Well the sources seem to be in much confusion then, thought star wars had sidestepped this issue but they're even worse than star trek DX This is from one of the books (can't find which one...) "Even with a well traveled hyperspace route the fastest ships, such as the Millennium Falcon, would take several months to traverse the whole diameter of the galaxy."

EDIT There's always a way around that little debacle with Bespin... For example, who's to say how long the MF was attached to that Star Destroyer and whether or not they searched nearby systems before giving up?

VenomStorm
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Re: Size of Galaxy & M.O.R.E. Galaxies

Postby VenomStorm » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:53 am

It's well established that the movies over rule the books in terms of canon. Plus, the book may not be wrong. It depends on where you are traveling to in the SW galaxy. For example, it would take 22 days to go directly from Coruscant to Tatooine, but if you went from Coruscant to Dantooine and then Dantooine to Tatooine, it would only take 20 hours. Check out Michael Wong's site stardestroyer.net for an in depth analysis of all things Star Wars. There are a few pages specifically on hyperdrive technology that would help you to understand just how fast it can be.

ANGLVD3TH
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Re: Size of Galaxy & M.O.R.E. Galaxies

Postby ANGLVD3TH » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:35 am

I would like to point out that nowhere in any of the movies does anyone say a thing about hyperspace speeds aside from a single line of hyperbole in TESB. And even then, it's after a time skip, so who knows how long they had to get "halfway across" the galaxy? GL is a great storyteller, but he doesn't know jack about science. I prefer to let him create the world/galaxy (universe?) and have others define the mechanics of it....

EDIT and to expand on that, I always assumed the parsec line A was a pretty bad mistake in dialogue (which GL has admitted) and B retconned (in my mind) to some sort of spacer slang that means nothing to us in universe. A popular theory online is that it is a very treacherous region and the shorter the distance the more skilled he is, but I'm not sure that makes sense in the context of the line. I always thought of it as some sort of technical jargon. Like a common shorthand for speed, ships can go X parsecs in a set amount of time, or somesuch. In real life, we have a somewhat similar analogy of power in cars. we can attribute a measure of time (zero to sixty in ___) to see how fast they can accelerate, which is literally using a unit of time to measure power. And then of course there are "9 second cars". Same concept, simply reverse. The "official" explanation was that he was making shit up to impress an old geezer and a young punk, but That seems like the worst so far...

Teleros
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Re: Size of Galaxy & M.O.R.E. Galaxies

Postby Teleros » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:30 am

ANGLVD3TH wrote:Well the sources seem to be in much confusion then, thought star wars had sidestepped this issue but they're even worse than star trek DX This is from one of the books (can't find which one...) "Even with a well traveled hyperspace route the fastest ships, such as the Millennium Falcon, would take several months to traverse the whole diameter of the galaxy."

Turns out most writers (Mr Lucas included) know tiddly-squat about either science, including how to do it. Who knew :mrgreen: ?

ANGLVD3TH wrote:EDIT There's always a way around that little debacle with Bespin... For example, who's to say how long the MF was attached to that Star Destroyer and whether or not they searched nearby systems before giving up?

Couldn't have been that long (Luke's training on Dagobah was occurring at around the same time).

ANGLVD3TH wrote:I would like to point out that nowhere in any of the movies does anyone say a thing about hyperspace speeds aside from a single line of hyperbole in TESB. And even then, it's after a time skip, so who knows how long they had to get "halfway across" the galaxy?

Hyperbole is usually why people prefer visuals to dialog when doing this kind of thing. "It's coming in at .5 c!" vs visuals showing it moving at, maybe, a couple of km/s, tops.

ANGLVD3TH wrote:GL is a great storyteller, but he doesn't know jack about science. I prefer to let him create the world/galaxy (universe?) and have others define the mechanics of it...

If we're talking out-of-universe, then the SW hyperdrive works at the speed of plot obviously ;) . However, if we suspend our disbelief and assume that what we see on-screen is an accurate representation of the SW universe, then the hyperdrive also seems to work out with speeds in such-and-such a range.

ANGLVD3TH wrote:EDIT and to expand on that, I always assumed the parsec line A was a pretty bad mistake in dialogue (which GL has admitted) and B retconned (in my mind) to some sort of spacer slang that means nothing to us in universe. A popular theory online is that it is a very treacherous region and the shorter the distance the more skilled he is, but I'm not sure that makes sense in the context of the line.

The other option is that Han was using real space jargon incorrectly to show off in front of this country bumpkin and his old man, on the basis that neither would know what the hell a parsec is. I can sort of imagine Chewie sitting there thinking "for the love of god Han, everyone knows what a parsec is" :D . The real "urgh" moment is when he says the Falcon can go ".5 past lightspeed" or w/e - the only way that makes sense (if Han isn't just spouting nonsense again) is if ".5 past lightspeed" is on some sort of scale that equates to it being umpteen million times the speed of light :lol: .

ANGLVD3TH wrote:The "official" explanation was that he was making shit up to impress an old geezer and a young punk, but That seems like the worst so far...

*Shrug* Like I said, best to take visuals over dialog. Even that leads to some fun though:

1. Several times we see the blast of a turbolaser bolt before the turbolaser bolt hits. The solution? Perhaps they have an invisible, damaging component that *should* be matched to the actual bolt, but which due to wear & tear or w/e hit fractionally earlier.

2. When that giant asteroid hits an ISD bridge tower in TESB... the damn tower just disappears. No debris, no real explosions, just that grey one and the tower's gone. Some have even suggested (not unreasonably given the shields, armour etc of the setting) that the asteroid merely damaged the tower, instead of destroying it - the bridge officer's hologram was obviously cut out by the damage etc, but he may even have survived it.
Clear ether!

ANGLVD3TH
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Re: Size of Galaxy & M.O.R.E. Galaxies

Postby ANGLVD3TH » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:34 am

The .5 past light speed is in fact jargon. A class 1 hyperdrive is the military standard. A class 2 hyperdrive is half as fast. Class 3 is slower, and it continues on an exponential curve. The ME is the fastest ship in the galaxy during the movies, at .5 or double the standard speed.

VenomStorm
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Re: Size of Galaxy & M.O.R.E. Galaxies

Postby VenomStorm » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:56 pm

ANGLVD3TH wrote:The .5 past light speed is in fact jargon. A class 1 hyperdrive is the military standard. A class 2 hyperdrive is half as fast. Class 3 is slower, and it continues on an exponential curve. The ME is the fastest ship in the galaxy during the movies, at .5 or double the standard speed.


And that is why you can't rely on dialogue. People lie and exaggerate all the time. The same can be assumed for movie characters. No one is infallible, people make mistakes when they talk. We have to make determinations based on the visuals. So the speed of hyperspace is determined by how long it takes a ship to get from one place to another.


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