How many iterations of buildings shall we have?

Lupusam
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Re: How many iterations of buildings shall we have?

Postby Lupusam » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:55 am

I think that 'building a lab' on a planet shouldn't so much represent building a specific lab or even a set of labs, but improving the facilities on the planet to make laboratories common in that colony. Adding a 'quantum physics' upgrade would then be 'here is the tech neccessary for the quantum physics work, they have become common among the laboratories here'... From this I think that having multiples of a specific building wouldn't make sense except perhaps for military tech which should perhaps be built per weapon... and that perhaps in each area there should be 1 basic building and then a number of 'upgrades' to it that improves the basic building in a more specialised direction...

Sturmir
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Re: How many iterations of buildings shall we have?

Postby Sturmir » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:48 am

The Galactic Civilization II or Space Empires approach might work pretty well. Have a population number on a planet that requires x amount of goods... infrastructure that is required to transport the goods to the planet, or produce the goods there, and have a limited number of space by the planets development type for your species. I don't imagine if we, as humans, landed on Neptune, we'd be rolling out vast agricultural fields there to supply the teeming billions we could resettle there. It'd be more like, we got a planet, only a certain percentage of it is really hospitable, or usable, so depending on it's condition, size, and your populations own ability to resist harshness of space/weather, you'd have a larger plot to mess with. I don't care if you can physically place the buildings, or just select it in a list, but I believe if we, as humanity, wanted to build as many research stations as we wanted there, we would. It would be insanely expensive, and the gain/worth may not be as worth it as you'd think. Researchers likely wouldn't enjoy it there, and the planet wouldn't be the best place for creative thought.
A planet like earth you could say we have 148,300,000 sq kms (30% of the planets surface due to water) to build on. Shorten that up to 148 "buildings" possible. That seems a bit much, so you can do it this way. 148 building plots, with different things requiring different surface areas. Farming would take up 10 plots. Cities (for economic output and population growth and expansion) would take up 6, and require about 2 farms worth of food. Mining would take up 10 plots. Research "cities" would take up about 16. Other special buildings could range from 1 (for solar sites for energy production) to 100 for Megaprojects (A Super City, A solar-system wide cannon, The building platform for a dyson sphere... ect.)
Each planet and moon could be assigned this value in millions of Square Kms. Water species would stick to Water-cities, Land based species would stick to land. You could then allow special buildings (underwater cities for humans for boosted research, or gathering Oil for lubricants..., ect. ect.) or other species to inhabit places you cannot exploit yourself.

Note: these plots wouldn't represent a little " Million Square KM " area. It'd be how much of the planets surface is dedicated to this, in Million Square KMs.

May Player
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Re: How many iterations of buildings shall we have?

Postby May Player » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:37 pm

It sounds really interesting and thought through.
I just want to remind even myself not to get stuck in XXI century way of thinking. Techs go ahead exponentially. Colonizing the Galaxy could take thousands of years (being ever-optimistic). As such, maybe looking at StarTrek for ideas would solve many issues? - like Food-replicators etc. No more farms needed..... Same goes for everything else. I kinda don't want to keep thinking in today's standards... maybe we also want to transport tractors and potato pickers to the stars? ;)

Sturmir
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Re: How many iterations of buildings shall we have?

Postby Sturmir » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:32 am

Well, even in star trek, perfect replication isn't possible. Most of the food there is re-sequenced protein, and recycled materials. Sure this could be fine for space ships (Star trek uses replicators to break down carbon dioxide and turn it into oxygen for perfect endless supply of oxygen) but they have power restraints and Rationing power output became necessary for colonies, cities, and ships seperate from major energy zones. Also, since the process isn't perfect, the food quality is substandard (Which is why alcohol and other forms of gourmet food isn't made with replicators) and agriculture is a very big industry still in star trek. Replicating just eliminated shortages and provided excess materials. Regardless, I'd like to think that even with technology like replicator, will everyone in your empire be able to afford this? You could still place the plot down for "food production" and just claim it's still just the necessary facilities to produce, wrap and ship replicated food and have higher energy needs for the facilities to work.

May Player
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Re: How many iterations of buildings shall we have?

Postby May Player » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:34 pm

'Will everyone in the empire be able to support this'? I hope so! :) As you know, it's like with everything else, at first, who could afford a TV set? Now everyone has several... Cell phones - first ones were just used by super rich businessmen or drug dealers ;) Now we all use these tiny super-computers called iPhones (iPhone 5 now) and so on and on.
What I'm saying is.. All the stuff we know and can produce and afford changes everyday. Our knowledge is just few thousands (some say 100,000 years), we forgot what our ancient civilizations knew, our tech civ had just 100 years or so.. Put that all in perspective and allow for continuity of knowledge.. What will be possible in another 100 years? What about next 10,000 years? Assuming our civ will not kill itself!
In M.O.R.E. we play a probability game; how successful our own civ can be? Please check the Moore's law?..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law

Its the same with medicine, knowledge of the Universe (just google all of that, do your homework).. If you look at the big picture of things, it's more positive than restrictive.
It always make me smile, when people quote something saying 'this is the maximum size' or 'it cannot go any faster' and so on and on... And the funny thing is life is always surprising to what possibilities become actually possible... Just give it a time.

Someone here mentioned that in another post (was it Tel?), in ancient times people would say today's city sizes would not be possible because how many horses would be needed to bring the food to such cities..

For me, it's all about opening own mind on the possibilities and not focusing on all the restrictions due to today's knowledge.
I also know, some people will read this and tend to disagree, others will say of course it will happen..

GoranXII
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Re: How many iterations of buildings shall we have?

Postby GoranXII » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:27 pm

Sturmir wrote:The Galactic Civilization II or Space Empires approach might work pretty well. Have a population number on a planet that requires x amount of goods... infrastructure that is required to transport the goods to the planet, or produce the goods there, and have a limited number of space by the planets development type for your species.
Well I don't know about GalCiv II, but up to the 4th game that is not how SE works.

May Player wrote:Same goes for everything else. I kinda don't want to keep thinking in today's standards... maybe we also want to transport tractors and potato pickers to the stars? ;)
Nah, to much supporting infrastructure would be required, horses are self-sustaining for the most part, and so would be much better.

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Re: How many iterations of buildings shall we have?

Postby Sturmir » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:36 am

GoranXII wrote:Well I don't know about GalCiv II, but up to the 4th game that is not how SE works.


Well, the Fifth game (Space Empire V) had food, metal, and Radioactive requirements, as well as a space port required to contribute goods into the global pool (otherwise the planet would consume the resources or just store them until it ran out of cargo space) population would die off if not given enough food per turn.
Galactic Civilization II had individual building placement, food requirements and the like in order for planets to sustain larger populations (thus increased taxes and production)

@Mayplayer Not everyone in todays society has a television, or a cell phone. Being apart of the privileged class of the worlds community (The EU, The US, First world countries like Japan) or the 1% of the ruling population in third world countries means you indeed have access to these modern privileges. As technology advances, and materials are discovered to decrease costs, more people will gain access to what we consider to be basic technological things, but right now, earth couldn't sustain everyone in the world having the US standard of living due to the large requirements of resources. As space would extend the global resource pool, populations will expand to accommodate new resources, and space. This does not mean the elimination of poor and an equalized standard of living, as there will always be a population above another population (In Terrans case) Whether they are called Admirals or President, CEOs or Dictators. These populations will get access to more advanced technology than the ones below them, and as costs decrease and streamlined manufacturing of these goods produce a surplus of supplies, the rest of the population will receive these advantages. Energy restraints, however, have nothing to do with Moore's law. If we had unlimited energy, that would be different, but the solar system only has a certain amount of energy in it (Mainly focused in it's sun) and the harnessing of that energy contributes to how much everyone else will have globally. Replication is the process of turning energy into matter, or turning matter into another form of matter with energy input. This is the restriction, not imagination, or a physical block in technology. Unlimited Energy would take away any form of competition as practically anything and everything would be replicated to the point of overabundance. What would be the point of resources, or anything like that?

I'm well aware of Moore's law in how it contributes to computing world. I also do believe that understanding it is just as important as awareness of it. Moore's law states that computing doubles every 18 month, but will taper off with modern materials due to heat requirements and limitations as we know them. This includes how small you can make a transistor (estimated to be about 10nms, but smaller may be possible) and the properties of electrons. How much space can you have between two objects and still transfer information? This may be overcome eventually with subatomic particles acting the role of electrons (Quantum Computing) but there is an eventual stop to size. We're just not going to reach them any time soon in our society, but will they reach it in the next 700 years? Maybe. New materials and components may make the process different, or the way we do computing may be entirely changed to the point where it no longer represents the current form we have now. In the end, I've never stated that it cannot be done, just that there will always be scaling production and consumption, and needs like foods and the like will never be fully extinguished throughout an earth empire (Though it can try it's damnest to achieve it.) If there wasn't there would be no point in playing beyond "Unlimited ships fighting unlimited ships in an epic battle" that would get boring after a few minutes. Applying Moore's law to anything but technology related to semiconductors and computing isn't a good use for the law at all. It was, after all, made to the prediction of the Semiconductor industry and how the industry would grow.
For a good comparison, Vehicles, which have over time, exploded in their use. It is nearly a requirement in the modern age to own a vehicle (unless access to public transportation, which is a public vehicle) the cost of vehicles over time have risen, not dropped over time (with inflation included) as cars become more complex. If we compare the low prices of $1,472 in 1949 to the low price of $10,235 in 2008 that would be an average annual increase of 3.3% If we compare the mean prices of $2,680 in '49 and $27,704 in '08 that gives an increase of 4.0% (adjusted for inflation) (Source: The Bureau of Labor Statistics http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1209.pdf ) Meaning not everything drops in price as technology becomes more wide ranging and necessary. The cost of chip and manufacturing becomes cheaper and access to new technology becomes more wide spread, but not totally available.

As societies advance, they will rid itself of poverty, but never rid itself of suffering. To suffer, is to be human.

GoranXII
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Re: How many iterations of buildings shall we have?

Postby GoranXII » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:22 am

Sturmir wrote:Well, the Fifth game (Space Empire V) had food, metal, and Radioactive requirements, as well as a space port required to contribute goods into the global pool (otherwise the planet would consume the resources or just store them until it ran out of cargo space) population would die off if not given enough food per turn.
Well the Spaceport thing has been around since at least SEIII, but the other stuff is new to me, and promising, upkeep till then had only been ship maintenance. Now I want to get my hands of a copy, despite the mixed reviews.

Sturmir
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Re: How many iterations of buildings shall we have?

Postby Sturmir » Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:30 am

It's nothing amazing, The upkeep wasn't enough to really make it challenging, but it's there. Just plant a planet without a space port and watch as its population stagnates. If attacked you can starve the population. This was a bigger factor when plagues hit and populations died off. The game itself has a lot of problems, and at the time it was an amazing game, today the game is very difficult to play (screen resolution alone)

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Re: How many iterations of buildings shall we have?

Postby May Player » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:54 pm

I try to think 'how to make things work' in the game...and not 'how make things or logic not to work' ;)

It's like the saying goes... 1000 people will sit and say 'this will NOT work', but there one person stands up and makes it work!
(...And as it works the 1000 people start using it, enjoying it and avoiding to mention what they were saying before...)

Just make that thing work! ;)
Last edited by May Player on Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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