Resources, Production and Upkeep

Tel
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Re: Resources, Production and Upkeep

Postby Tel » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:10 pm

my intention was to give an idea of how things work, to give a precise description would require more time than I have available right now.
you're right to ask, but there's no substitute for personal experience.
Some things don't sound logic neither have exact relevance with real life, but play well and are more challenging and fun in a game.
(like the sound of engines and explosions in space, it's just cool, we all know it's not possible)
I'm also waiting at some point more to be revealed by the developers and we'll have something more specific to discuss.

Wodzu
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Re: Resources, Production and Upkeep

Postby Wodzu » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:48 pm

GoranXII wrote:*
* it's necessary for keeping track of military potential - after your ships exceed your command points (capacity) you must pay for it.
So the fact that the US (a country of less than 150 million people) brought more than 100 ships to later battles during the Pacific War means squat, because of some arbitrary system to limit the number of ships under your control?


U.S.A. have more than 300 million people.

I think you are intentionally missing the point here. Those resources are here to abstract things as Tel said. And abstraction is a good thing. If I am the leader of ants and I am trading with race of medusas I do not want to dwelwe into details how the transaction is made. I want to focus on other much more interesting things (atleast for me).

You can treat Commnad Points as an abstraction to all the processes that finally lead to the point in which U.S.A. sent this 100 ships to Pacific War and not 200 or 150. Because that was the limit of U.S.A. in that day. In a game we could have this limit expressed in Command Points.

GoranXII
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Re: Resources, Production and Upkeep

Postby GoranXII » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:11 pm

* U.S.A. have more than 300 million people.
Note the bit where I mentioned the Pacific War, ie WW2?

* If I am the leader of ants and I am trading with race of medusas I do not want to dwelwe into details how the transaction is made. I want to focus on other much more interesting things (atleast for me).
I can imagine trading in minerals, ships and planets, but I'm having trouble understanding why there'd be a currency, don't minerals cover pretty much everything?

* You can treat Commnad Points as an abstraction to all the processes that finally lead to the point in which U.S.A. sent this 100 ships to Pacific War and not 200 or 150.
The only thing that limited deployment for the USN in WW2 was the number of ships they actually had. Of course managing 100+ ships would be hellish for micromanagement, but that's the price you pay for having a big navy. IMO the only thing to limit ships should be maintenance costs.

Calavero
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Re: Resources, Production and Upkeep

Postby Calavero » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:42 am

GoranXII, have you played Master of Orion II? If not - please play or watch gameplay from this game. It will answer many of your questions...

Sorry but we don't have time to discuss this matters in such details. For example "Yes, but when you buy a car in Germany or Japan" - Both nations can use "gold"... and you will ask me "but what if some races don't use gold" ... etc. I don't want to go into this kind of discussion because we have to focus on doing this game. Sorry.
M.O.R.E. under construction

GoranXII
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Re: Resources, Production and Upkeep

Postby GoranXII » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:11 pm

No I haven't, but I have played a bit of the Civilization series, which Thangulhad informed be over on the Offtopic forum plays very similar, and indeed now I look at it like that most of it falls into place, aside perhaps from freighters. And I will look up a few videos of MoO2 gameplay.

Thangulhad
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Re: Resources, Production and Upkeep

Postby Thangulhad » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:53 pm

GoranXII,

A unit like a GCU would be a currency type recognized across the galaxy. If you are a space faring race, you should have the intelligence to interact with other races. So whether you be a tiny creature or something huge, currency of some form will matter if you engage on a galactic level.

Think of production as the rate at which a colony can or will output things to build. For example, I'll use an example of an early building that can be researched from MoO2, an Automated Factory. This unit provides +5 production to the colony. These production units are used to create ships, build other colony structures, etc. Just because a planet has resources, you have to construct the infrstructure to use it. To explain it to you in Civ terms, it was the little hammer output (which is production output).

Freighters ARE indeed a measurable resource. I'll explain. So let's say from your home world, you build a colony on a barren planet. The colonists there will need food to survive and grow on. So what occurs is your home parent will need to provide food surplus, which in turn requires a freight fleet to move around. To think of it in Civ terms, imagine if you built a city in the middle of a dessert, but somehow could take food from an agricultural city and shuttle it to the city needing it. Same kind of concept. So this is a new feature to use and focus on for galactic empire development. One you never had to deal with before just from Civ.

Command points are a points pool that dictate how large you can grow your fleet. If you exceed this (which you can), then you have to pay out in sever penalties in the form of currency. Borrowing from MoO2, command points were generated by space stations, battle stations, etc. Also certain technology developed aided in how many command points were made available. Think of it as the command infrastructure to support your overall ship fleet.

If possible, you may want to get your hands on a copy of MoO2 if you can find one. It will help you take your knowledge of Civ to a galactic level.
-Thangulhad

Haji
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Re: Resources, Production and Upkeep

Postby Haji » Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:55 pm

Calavero wrote:GoranXII, have you played Master of Orion II? If not - please play or watch gameplay from this game. It will answer many of your questions...

Sorry but we don't have time to discuss this matters in such details. For example "Yes, but when you buy a car in Germany or Japan" - Both nations can use "gold"... and you will ask me "but what if some races don't use gold" ... etc. I don't want to go into this kind of discussion because we have to focus on doing this game. Sorry.


Leave such discussions to other players - believe me, some of them (sometimes me as well) like to discuss such things. The most important thing here, I guess, is how will this work in the game.

So to get things back on track, I have a question: will you be able to buy things for money, or are they only a way to calculate upkeep? Becouse, to be honest, I dislike the idea of buying things immiedietely. That's one of the ways to go from no fleet in a system to 20+ ships in a system within 3 turns.

Wodzu
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Re: Resources, Production and Upkeep

Postby Wodzu » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:36 pm

Haji wrote:So to get things back on track, I have a question: will you be able to buy things for money, or are they only a way to calculate upkeep? Becouse, to be honest, I dislike the idea of buying things immiedietely. That's one of the ways to go from no fleet in a system to 20+ ships in a system within 3 turns.


You are assuming that you will have enough money for building +20 ships in 3 turns but I doubt it will be possible. I do not see anything bad in hurrying up production. In a real world you can also hurry up production by paying more to the people who producing the thing, so why can not it be done in the game? However, there is a trick here: the further away you are from finishing up the production the more money you need to spend to hurry it up. Some formula is needed, just an example:

1 turn to finish up the production, 100 production points are needed = 100 galactic coins
2 turns to finish up the production, 200 production points are needed = 300 galactic coins
3 turns to finish up the production, 300 production points are needed = 600 galactic coins

By using such simple formula, you will not be able to build 20+ ships in 3 turns. Not a decent ships which will be able to defend you against 10+ good enemy ships invaiding your star system.

May Player
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Re: Resources, Production and Upkeep

Postby May Player » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:21 pm

Wodzu wrote:
Haji wrote:1 turn to finish up the production, 100 production points are needed = 100 galactic coins
2 turns to finish up the production, 200 production points are needed = 300 galactic coins
3 turns to finish up the production, 300 production points are needed = 600 galactic coins

By using such simple formula, you will not be able to build 20+ ships in 3 turns. Not a decent ships which will be able to defend you against 10+ good enemy ships invaiding your star system.


My thinking exactly!
You can build ships if you have the money. Bigger empires mean bigger capabilities. It's not like present-day Earth economy where coutries fight internal problems and each others. Going to the stars it means the production of entire planet is united and capable and it's only the beginning.
In the future, there could be auto-building factories, producing parts as per request, robots, nanoids.
Even in M.O.R.E. the ships are build from big blocks. These building blocks will be probably build in the background and ready-to-use in the shipyards.
As you see the capability can be easily there so hurry-up production is not a big deal.

Also as I mentioned in another post; this is a TURN-BASED game so one turn is whatever each one of the players wants it to be. For one player it might be one month and for another 10 years... It is definitely not a real-time strategy.

Also as Wodzu mentioned:
" Not a decent ships which will be able to defend you against 10+ good enemy ships invaiding your star system."
That speaks for itself ;)
I would just add - if someone is so weak and stupid, that wants to attack your planet with 10 ships and be destroyed by one or two of your hurry-up ships, then let them come and die! :)

AstralWanderer
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Re: Resources, Production and Upkeep

Postby AstralWanderer » Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:20 am

Haji wrote:So to get things back on track, I have a question: will you be able to buy things for money, or are they only a way to calculate upkeep? Becouse, to be honest, I dislike the idea of buying things immiedietely. That's one of the ways to go from no fleet in a system to 20+ ships in a system within 3 turns.
Agreed - spending extra money should (up to a point) allow you to build things faster but it should never allow you to build instantaneously - for players in immediate need of military hardware, allow them to hire mercenaries or buy (pre-built and hence older) ships on a galactic market.

As for the command point system, that was a way of limiting fleet size in MOO2 (so the number of colonies you had imposed a maximum limit). This was needed since MOO2 didn't require upkeep for ships, allowing players to build limitless fleets (given time) otherwise. If M.O.R.E. has an economic model where every military unit requires maintenance, then command points aren't needed since resource production imposes a limit instead.


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